Sick.

I’m heartsick. I can’t believe this. How can another four years of that dickhead possibly be justified? Who the…? What the…? How? Why did you jerks let me down? Here I am, defending us to the rest of the frickin’ world, one person at a time, telling every US critic that we’re really not so bad, that I think most folks are basically good, that things are generally getting better, that we’re not as backwards as our President makes us look. But you know what? That’s a big damn lie. The majority of my fellow citizens care more about two gay men setting up house than they do about responsible foreign and economic policy. I’m f**king ashamed.

Whew. That rant’s been building up for about six hours. Only sixteen months til I can get Australian citizenship, huh? And here I was thinking that moving back to the States might be a foreseeable goal. Sorry, Ma. As long as a Bush is in the White House, my mailing address will remain in another hemisphere.

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  1. I can’t understand why Alaska voted GWB. Ain’t Alaska going to vanish in the next 4 years due to global warming etc?

  2. Not to mention the fact that he wants to drill up there to get at the oil…

  3. too depressing to contemplate… i’ll be continuing my expat life for a while more then! (oh, and re: alaska — most of them welcome the drilling b/c they want the money… short-termist perhaps, but there you go…)

  4. That’s like the Tasmanians over here that support the logging of old-growth forests. Sure, it keeps the industry alive for the short-term, but eventually you run out of Truffula trees and then *everybody’s* screwed.

  5. Well with GWB, we’re all screwed. Ah well … good battle anyway.

  6. I knew it … but I still have no words…

  7. At least that gives me four more years to come and visit….if we’re still allowed to travel outside the country.

  8. I didn’t know if I’d have trusted a long lost relative of Herman Munster anyway.

  9. Sigh.

    How do you think *I* feel, Kris? IN gave 60% of its votes to GWB. I feel frustrated, ashamed, and robbed. I waited in line 1.5 hours for THAT? When my Grandmother discovered whom I voted for, she said, “I don’t see how you can call yourself a Christian and still vote for that jerk, Kerry.”

    Big. Heavy. Sigh.

  10. dark days ahead, my fellow americans. I’m holding out hope that Massachusetts seceeds.

  11. Major disappointment. Dunno, guess it’s time to give up on this whole Democratic Party thing. We just can’t play anymore. Who knows, maybe something will happen in Ohio. But still, no popular vote, even, this time. Whatever remains of the Dem. party, I hope they figure out how to put some fire in people again.

  12. All I can say is those stupid Mid-western cud-chewers can go FUCK their moral values. I’m in utter, utter disbelief that ‘moral values’ was the number one concern during exit polls. Moral values so long as it’s agreeable with their morals, apparently. I have a very big wish to really go all out and flaunt my gayness now. I think knitting and paper crafts are going to have to get amped up so I can really offend some people.

    Stay in Australia, Kris…ain’t no good coming in the States for a long, long time. Bush may be over in 4 more years, but the Supreme Court he’s going to pack will around for a generation. Anyone needing an abortion should proceed immediately to their nearest clinic.

    Dan, regarding the fire of the Dem’s..they had their damn chance with Dean and everyone got their panties in a twist over his outbursts…they either want fire or they don’t.

    At least we have Kris’ wedding to look forward to.

  13. Yeah, well, I live in a state that has 2, yes 2 electoral votes and they always go RED. I voted for Kerry because I cant stand Bush, but… I was like….part of only 25% of my state. I am just as sick over the whole thing. Pisses me off to be honest.

  14. I’m not an American citizen, but I have to say this feels like a double whammy after John Howard’s win. It’s another kick in the guts. I feel so damn disheartened – this political climate is depressing. I’m starting to wonder about us humans, I really am. Are we really this cynical and insular? And downright stupid?

    Sorry, end of whining 🙂

  15. The Supreme Court situation is what scares me the most. And let’s not forget that the GOP snapped up a few more congressional seats…

    Damn this handbasket.

  16. CHEER UP EVERYONE!!!! LIFE CAN NEVER BE THAT BAD!!!

  17. Maybe some of you whiners should consider running for office – you seem to think you have all the answers….

  18. I say “yahoo” to the results. I voted the moral line…and I’m glad others did, too.

  19. Wow! That’s awesome, Anonymous. Maybe you should have the balls to list your name and then we can talk about answers. Coward.

    To Moire – I was at a church in my fiance’s hometown last Sunday, where the pastor went off on a rousing political tangent in the opening prayer, which included a statement about how Democrats “hate OUR god.” I was in so much shock I couldn’t convince my legs to walk right out. I just sat there and prayed to have the peace of mind to not judge an entire congregation on what one misguided leader says…despite the fact that he just passed a sweeping, extremely harsh judgment on ME and 49% of my country.

    (In related news, I celebrate the fact that Kerry won the particular swing state this church was in.)

    I can’t fathom that the attitude nowadays in the US is that it’s only possible to believe in God if you’re a Republican. Not only that, moral values now apparently = pre-emptive war and a disregard for human rights and equality both nationwide and abroad.

    I don’t buy the exit polls. Nobody asked *me* (or anyone that I know who voted, for that matter) what was most important.

    And one more additional comment…someone in Bush’s camp in Ohio said that Kerry should “be a good American and concede now.” I can’t believe that after all the pressure of telling everyone how much their vote counts, the advice is now to leave 250,000 provisional ballots in Ohio alone.

    For some unknown reason, for the second year in a row in California, my ballot has ended up being a provisional one. And I can wholeheartedly say that if some asshole said “don’t worry, counting her little pink envelope isn’t going to change things” there would be an uproar! I would riot. It doesn’t matter if it won’t change the outcome. I think waiting it out is the good American thing to do. That’s what we’ve been talking about this entire election. It shouldn’t ever be fair or right or good to leave any vote uncounted. (Even if there is this ridiculous electoral college business.)

    Okay. I think I’m done. I invite Anonymous to BRING IT ON.

  20. I am not alone in wondering why, in this country, “Moral” suddenly equals “born-again, right-wing, fundamentalist Christian.” And how drunk-driving, AWOL, lying, camera-flipping-off George W. Bush translates to so many people as the “moral” choice.

    For the first time in my life, I am really ashamed of my country. And I’m glad that I’m in the process of getting my Irish citizenship, because I’m less and less sure that this country can be fixed. I mean WHAT HAS TO HAPPEN before people wake the hell up?
    Really depressed today.

  21. I must have missed the memo that said that social justice and helping the unfortunate are no longer considered moral, whereas a costly and unecessary wars and resticting civil rights are A-OK. Being a Christian isn’t supposed to be about judging others. A lot of good “morals” will do you when you lose your jobs, the bank forecloses on your farms, and your kids gets killed in Iraq. Are the majority of American people really that dumb? Sadly, the answer appears to be yes. When is the rural midwest and south going to realize that they are nothing more than pawns for the rich and powerful corporate republicans?

  22. sorry about all the typos. i’ll proofread next time

  23. OMG, Kerry conceded. I think I’m going to throw up.

  24. Speaking of the ‘moral’ line: did any of you hear Alan Keyes’ ‘debates’ in the senate race for Illinois? John Stewart summed it up in saying he was surprised he got any votes at all. But he got 27%. 27% of the votes in Illinois went to a talk show host from Maryland, transplanted here to run for the GOP, who actually encouraged people to vote for him because ‘Jesus Christ would not vote for Barack Obama.’ Alan Keyes is also the man who argued in this race that homosexual marriage would lead to unintentional incest. Because when gay couples adopt, their children, not knowing their ‘real’ family could accidentally sleep with their brother/sister. Thousands of people voted for this man! Thank God (mine and yours everyone else’s) for voter turn out in Chicago: 77% Barack Obama is now the only black senator and only the 5th ever elected to that office. I am proud of my Illinois license for that reason.

    My friend Scott said it best: Clinton/Obama 2008

  25. More on the “moral” bit. I’m not sure what bothers me more: Americans who think that Bush is moral just because he’s Repulican and speaks as if everything is a clear choice between “good and evil” or the fact that they are so afraid of gay marriage that they want to keep him in office.

    I spent last night and most of this morning very very sad and seriously thinking of the Canadian option. Now I’m just pissed off and trying to figure out how those millions and millions of us who are sad and outraged can take our country back!

  26. I’m with ya. I think Rob and I will be heading up to the pub tonight to drown our sorrows.
    But I tell ya what, Clinton/Obama 2008 might actually get me to move back to the US….

  27. Let me know if you hear of any US History professorships opening up Down There…

  28. Clinton in ’08 would make that election THE definition of mandate .. in favor of Republicans.

  29. Thanks for the comments, everybody. I can’t imagine what it must be like for you all over there. At least I got to wake up this morning and think “It’s over.” Sure, I might have to discuss it at the shop today with anybody that recognizes my accent, but I don’t have to go through my day with the knowledge that 50% of the population is gloating that their dickhead puppet won. I can’t think of a single Australian (outside of John Howard) who’ll be anything but sympathetic about this. I can try to forget about it. (At least for the next two weeks, til I have to fly home to Indiana. Grrrr. Stupid red state Indiana.)

    I have to admit, Beau, that my initial reaction last night was one of complete anger. I thought about cancelling the wedding. Childish, I know, but there’s still a part of me that resents participating in an institution that the fundies and Bush claim as their own. I don’t want to be part of their demographics. Dubya fills me with such rage that I want to spite all of them. I want to become a crack whore on welfare. I want to be a transexual bigamist. I want to donate my eggs for gay couples and stem cell research. Gahhhh…

    But that is a bit childish, isn’t it? (Except for the eggs part. You guys can have some if you want!) Saying we were gonna get married seemed to make so many folks happy… and there’s not a lot for 49% to feel happy about right now. So for now, it’s still on… just as long as any smug ass-faced conservative doesn’t congratulate me on it.

  30. Oh, I’m sure they wouldn’t approve of you marrying some crazy Aussie, especially in Sin City. 🙂 You’ve got to keep it within your race, creed and country, right?

    And TBS is trying to placate all of us by showing ‘The American President’ tonight. Ironic and sad.

  31. This isn’t my country any more. Seriously, if I had the money, I’d be out of here in a heartbeat.

  32. There was a really good 3 part TV series on BBC here called erm .. “Fear of Nightmares” or something like that. I missed the first episode but it was all about how goverments make up all these facts to scare us into thinking Al Queda is real etc.

    Very good series, if you get a chance to see it somehow then I’d watch it.

  33. Edit: It was called “The Power of Nightmares” ..ooops.

  34. Woke up this morning a bit surprised at how disappointed I still feel. I dunno… I always try to see both sides with these things, but I’m really struggling to understand the ‘other side’ this time. Besides voting on what appears to be misplaced notions of “morality”, what else have they got? At least with the election of Howard, I could understand… I wasn’t happy, but I could understand.

    Do I sound bitter? Yeah, probably because I am. Really really bitter. And worried. And I’m not even American.

  35. “I want to become a crack whore on welfare” – Kris

    That was hilarious!
    In Japan. we skipped the religious wedding ceremony and just registered our marriage. Were supposed to be a catholic/protestant couple but we are really atheists.

  36. I thought of a silver lining: Every time the US dollar takes another nose dive, I end up paying less on my student loan! Four more years of Bush should take care of that nicely. So that’s good. Self-serving, but good.

  37. another silver lining is that all the comics will still have lots of material for the next 4 years….

  38. Re: Alaska:
    Alaska has the largest proportion of men to women of any state, and men tend to vote Republican more than females. Plus, they *want* the drilling up there. About the only reason anyone moves to Alaska is because they’re in the oil industry, so opening up the drilling means more $$ for them. Then you add in the fact that the energy industry and Alaska in general has a lot of ex-military types, and a lot of Creeper “off the grid” secessionist types…and you start to see why it is almost a frozen Utah.

  39. P.S.:
    aim, if that is true – your church could be fined and lose tax-exempt status if they are caught.

  40. At least Bush and the Aussie PM for that matter are expected to be right wing. Here in Blighty we got Blair and Blunkett and they’re supposed to be lefties?

    My commiserations anyway.

  41. You people are hilarious. Democracy worked, accept it, your not leaving the country, quit being a child. But you are entertaining.

    “All I can say is those stupid Mid-western cud-chewers can go FUCK their moral values.”

    Ahh, there’s the compassionate liberalism we’ve all come to love.

  42. You can’t read and you can’t spell. (I already left the country FOUR YEARS AGO, and the contraction of “you are” is “you’re”.) And I’ll take compassionate liberalism over compassionate conservatism anyday.

  43. So, explain then what does it feel like to live with such hate? The decision is final, I’m so sorry to say, for all of you who choose to mourn this loss for John Kerry. It’s one thing to stand strong about what you believe and verbalize that but quite another criticize and minimalize the importance of conservative values of myself, my family, parts of your own respective families…you don’t even know me. This site seems to be largely a place where everyone who thinks alike can come and bitch about the need for change (to the people who hold similar viewpoints)…a nice neat forum for complacency completely unable to reach the people you wish to influence because of the raw hatred. And hmmm…that makes me really wonder why in the world poor “anonymous” didn’t have the balls to leave their name. Perhaps because they knew you were going to insult them by essentially calling their literacy and grammar skills into question…obviously they have a different opinion than yourselves when it comes to political agendas. So, does that feel good to insult someone’s intelligence? I sure hope it makes you all warm inside. You don’t even know this person but I’m sure they’ll thoroughly respect your grammar lesson and also remember your kindness. I don’t think that comment about the person’s literacy would have been made face to face so why do that here? And no, I am not “anonymous” by the way–this is my first post. Here’s a prime example of the general mood of this whole forum. You have this choice:

    Post anonymously no yes

    But it’s not really a choice is it? Because you have to choose “no”, otherwise your comment is disrespected (along with the obvious political difference of opinion). Wouldn’t it make more sense to care about the person rather than the grammar?

    I just want to issue the challenge to keep it peaceful. I’m going to assume that just because the vast majority of persons posting on this site are liberal thinkers that everyone still holds to the idea that we cannot progress at all while we are divided. Furthermore, degradation and insult to something as important as someone’s morals and personal beliefs will only serve to expand the divide which I would hope we all strive to bring together in our daily lives…by the way we live, express ourselves, and relate to both friends and strangers. I can’t see how these posts are a compassionate representation of the liberal ideology in any way. All I hear is hate…hate towards anything that is not so-called “progressive ” thinking. I live in the U.S. and I am proud of most things about this country (not all, most). To those who obviously don’t want to be here…move. Stop groaning. Either that or take worthwhile strides for change. To those who feel that gay marriage is the biggest issue in politics right now…push for change. And finally to that one person (who I’m sure was angry at the time) who believes “stupid Mid-western cud-chewers can go FUCK their moral values”…if you really believe you’re so very elite why don’t you explain to this stupid Mid-westerner why she should go “fuck” her moral values. I’d love to hear why you might say something of that nature and what brought you to that conclusion. I am an educated 22 year old woman who has strong opinions about lots of issues… I try to look at things with an open mind and my moral values and faith are the driving force of my life. Those values and my faith do not mean that I cannot make educated decisions about things that affect my future…but then again I don’t make decisions based on what you or anyone else thinks…I make my decisions based on what I think and I’m sure that you don’t make your decisions on what I think. Because this is a DEMOCRACY where the DIFFERENT VOICES are heard. Why can’t we talk about WHY things should be a certain way rather than having a great time attacking everything that we don’t agree with? Kris, I AM going to congratulate you on your marriage when I get to meet you in the states at Amy’s wedding, not because I’m interested in what gay marriage has to do with your marriage, or stem cell research, or crack whores, or transexual bigomists but because I am just going to want to congratulate you human to human so I hope that you don’t think I look too smug when you imagine I’m thinking about Dubya’s next run at the White House. And finally, this is where this Mid-Western cud-chewer gets her motivation and inspiration:

    “I know how to live when I am poor, and I know how to live when I have plenty. I have learned the secret of being happy at any time in everything that happens, when I have enough to eat and when I go hungry, when I have more than I need and when I do not have enough. I can do all things through Christ because he gives me strength”. Phillipians 4:12-13

    Go ahead and remain in “utter, utter disbelief” about moral values and how they influence our society. You don’t have to listen to the frickin polls. Who gives a rip. What’s important to you and why? And keep it dignified–who do you plan to reach when you push people away? Continue to make your sweeping generalizations and I’m sure you’ll come to the conclusion that the world is eternally unjust…I mean really, who would think that as a society we would value our morals more than anything else? For shame.

    Construct some peaceful differences folks but don’t destroy those who can’t agree.

  44. I don’t understand why the decision “being final” precludes us from mourning Kerry’s loss. I mean, when people die that’s final, and people are still allowed to mourn. I don’t understand why so many Republicans can’t understand that emotions were running high on both sides during this election and some anger was bound to bubble over. But please don’t let that stop you from rubbing our noses in it.

    “This site seems to be largely a place where everyone who thinks alike can come and bitch about the need for change (to the people who hold similar viewpoints)…a nice neat forum for complacency completely unable to reach the people you wish to influence because of the raw hatred.”

    Not to be rude, but duh. This isn’t a political action group forum. It’s simply the comments on my personal website. Imagine it as me and my buddies sitting around drinking beers. We chat, we argue, we talk about the stuff that bothers us. You’re welcome to pull up a chair and join the group, but it’s silly to get upset that we all get along and think alike and have in-jokes and stuff. And while we all appreciate a good argument, “stop being a child” is not really effective rhetoric, now is it? (Especially since I myself admitted that my initial rage was childish.) There’s a certain standard to our level of discussion around here, and as this is my own site, I reserve the right to mock those who can’t live up to it. Being anonymous has nothing to do with it. Being able to back up your statements with decent written English does.

    Kara, I can appreciate your faith. I honestly do. But, honestly, what does that have to do with anything? You’re presuming that everybody in this discussion was some big sort of anti-religion, latte-drinking, citified, Karl-Rove-manufactured liberal nightmare? Think again. The commenters above include Catholics, Protestants, former military personnel, people from the country, people from other countries, you name it. BEING A GOOD PERSON DOES NOT MEAN BEING A REPUBLICAN (and anyone that tells you different is selling something).

    And the idea that a cokehead draft-dodging alcoholic ne’er-do-well is some sort of paragon of morality is just sickening. I voted for the moral candidate. I voted for the candidate in favor of not invading other countries, not enshrining discrimination in the US Constitution, not promoting “No Child Left Behind” while secretly ensuring that the reality is anything but, not treating our allies and neighbours around the world with disdain and contempt. To me, those are much more “moral” values than a thin veneer of “born-again” grandstanding.

  45. Ok, time out kids. Let’s declare a truce! I hope that all of you expats remember that the country that you’re bashing is still home (where mom & dad and other family members live!)….

  46. both nice arguments from the future possible sisters-in-law. but i have to say – i didn’t really read anyone’s post and hear “only republicans can be good people.”

    maybe i’m wrong. but who knows. i do think it’s obviously quite easy for everyone to misread these things and interpret words as he/she sees fit. we’re all fighting different people and posts here.

    just all keep in mind, there are crazy republicans and shady democrats, and smart people with illogical arguments, poor spellers with thoughts that have merit (not you, anon) and people with poor grammar skills who are just complete idiots (W). we won’t all ever get along. i think bush is going to make that harder than ever. just my opinion.

    on that note, i just want to state publicly and for the record to any family and friends reading – that my wedding (and let’s be honest, pretty much the few days preceding) belongs to ME AND DAN. and as this website is a self-defined forum for chatting, arguing and talking about things that bother us…in two weeks, that is NOT going to be the atmosphere. if i hear anyone breathe words of politics, religion or any other heavy issues that our VERY divided family and friends could get into heated arguments over – i will seriously start throwing things. possibly punches. just wanted to make sure that was clear. 🙂

    go forth and be merry. or pissy. it’s your call people.

  47. Ma, if I didn’t still consider it home and worth fighting for I’d never be bashing the election results in the first place…

    And Amy, my “only republicans can be good people” was mostly about my interpretation of your story about the church guy. Anybody who insists that all Christians must vote Republican is silly. I just fear that a lot of people made that JESUS=BUSH connection without putting any critical thought into it. I was just trying to counter that by pointing out that there were serveral good, moral, even religious people in the discussion disagreeing with that equation.

    As for arguing at the wedding, “duh.” I don’t discuss this stuff with randoms in public anymore than you do, and I won’t do anything to ruin your special day. I reserve the right to come on here each night and rant away though… 🙂

  48. I also feel that I should defend Beau’s “Midwestern cud-chewers” comment, since it seems to have gotten a few folks riled up. Look, I’m from Indiana myself and I didn’t take offense. He’s a great guy that I’ve known online for years: he’s a homeowner and compulsive renovator, he’s the papa of two adorable kitties, he’s a nurse who loves helping people, and he just lost his mom a year ago. Finding out that more than half the voters in the country support the candidate in favor of a Constitutional Amendment to keep him from legalizing his relationship with his partner of many years would understandably piss him off. I cut him some slack because I’m his friend. That’s what compassionate people do.

  49. Wow, what a discussion we have here! What I have always appreciated about this site is that ANYONE is free to offer an opinion or comment on anything he/she wishes. The table is open, so to speak, and anyone is allowed to state their personal opinion, but also–social etiquette also demands listening to others. It’s just plain common courtesy. Not to mention the fact that we will never sharpen our views if they are never challenged or questioned. In kindergarten, for pete’s sake, I teach children to value difference as being an asset that will make us sharper and stronger. I have to say that I disagree with the statement that it is merely a place where like-minded people gather and “bitch” I appreciate the coming together of different minds and different ways of thinking from various walks of life to discuss important matters. Where else in the world does that happen? Honestly, wasn’t freedom of expression and opinion the original reason for the founding of this nation? Yes, the matter was religious freedom in that instance, but in all reality, it was a difference of opinion. I think there were high emotions on both sides of the fence of this election. I think if the results would have been different, there may have been heated discussion over why THAT election was unreasonable and ill-thought by most voters. The harsh reality is that we are now a split nation and we have choices to make on how to proceed from this place. I appreciate this forum and the freedom I am given to state my opinion as well as compare them to the opinions of others because if forces me to evaluate my stance.

  50. Kara, etc…

    Listen, I consider myself both a Christian and conservative. Hell, y’all will probably hate me for admitting this, but I VOTED FOR BUSH THE FIRST TIME AROUND. I’m not a Republican, however, I identify more with those wacky Libertarians than anyone else. That *doesn’t* mean that I’m comfortable with the idea of denying rights, freedoms, and civil liberties to a specified group of people just because another specified group of people think the others’ lifestyle is “wrong.” Who are you, and who am I to tell anyone how to live their lives? That is not what our country was founded on. And you can talk all you want about how this country was “founded on the Bible” blah blah blah, and how I’m not allowed, as a Christian, to pick and choose which parts from the Bible I think are right, blah blah blah. The fact remains that there is a seperation of church and state for a reason, people. Think Iran. Think Saudi Arabia. Hell, think the Pilgrims! How would you feel if a bunch of Mullahs came to power and told you that you couldn’t worship Jesus anymore? How would you feel if you were told how to live your life, period? Where in the Ten Commandments does it say “Love Thy Neighbor, Except If They’re Faggots. Or Stem Cell Researchers”?? It’s asinine.

    And where in the world did anyone here who bemoans the reelction of Bush spew hatred and bigotry towards the folks who voted him back in? I’d have to start hating my Dad, my Grandma (who told me I was no Christian because I voted for Kerry), Hell, probably my entire damn family. Any pastor who says “Democrats HATE OUR GOD” is an idiot, I’m sorry. THAT’s hate, my friend. That’s the whole “them heathens against us” mentality that has so polarized our country.

    Anyway, I think the point is that Bush has said and done some things in the 4 years he’s been in office that has alienated and pissed off a HUGE lot of us. 47% of the population isn’t a drop in the hat, it’s a big fucking lot of us. And not to mention the rest of the world’s population… I’m really saddened by how the rest of the world views us. We’re not that bad. We’re GOOD people. We like to help each other and basically everyone else. We dig very deep into our pocketbooks every year and give billions and billions to other countries to help, we fly in aid, food, etc. I don’t think the American people begrudge the world that fact. But, really, we’ve got things we’ve got to take care of here, too, and if all you care about is the gays and the baby killers and whether or not God’s Mouthpiece is in the White House, then I think you’re a little bit blind to the BIG PICTURE.

    And I’m probably not making much sense anymore, because I’m so mad and sad and disappointed with 51% of my fellow Americans that I can’t think straight, but there it is.

    Oh. And one more thing:

    Love Thy Neighbor, Goddammit.

  51. I really like the line about picking and choosing which parts of the bible you want to believe, seems to me if ya believe you believe it all and if ya dont then ya dont. Funny thing is I dont remember the pastor mentioning that option in church, but then again I suppose he probably voted for Bush anyway. Maybe when you grow up and finally become an adult you will realize that you cant choose what to believe just because it fits your mood for the day, its a clear choice and if ya arent prepared to make it than stop pretending like you care.

  52. I have stumbled on this website by accident, its very nice.

    As a Leb/Canadian i do admire people still have clear thinking in America.
    The whole world knows americans arent really so bad, its always the people at the “top” that people are always angry about. So the world starts to generalize the actions of a few to all americans, that isnt fair i know.

    While the rest of the world is still in shock and disbelief, i am actually scared for the well being of the USA. I believe its gonna be the worst 4 years since the past 20 years.
    I just dont get how people can vote concerning gays getting married over, world conflict and detoriating economy.

  53. You’re so right, Anonymous. Truly religious people shouldn’t get to pick and choose what part of the Bible they believe. I assume you eschew the eating of shellfish then, and shall we assume your presence at the next stoning of adulterers?

    (That was sarcasm.)

    Thanks to Aragorn and everyone who’s contributed to the discussion. Especially Moire, because I think it’s so important to show that it’s okay to change your mind about Bush (or anything political, for that matter). This isn’t picking a football team and then sticking with them. It’s about making rational choices, and in the real world, people change their minds. (That’s why I didn’t get that it was bad that Kerry was a “flip-flopper.” Only fundamentalists and loonies never change their mind as they grow up and experience new things.)

    Oh, and wacky Libertarian girl? We need to arrange a time to meet up before Thanksgiving for a real world beer! (See, I have no problems with Christians and Conservatives, because Moire can spell and she’s smart. And she knows where to find all the best Harry Potter slash. I have no political requirements for friendship; only intellectual.)

  54. Heh! Thanks, Kris. I wear my Slash Connoisseur badge with pride. 🙂

    Woo! Beer! And OS X software! I’ll send you an email with my contact info.

  55. Danny (CotW) formerly known as

    November 11, 2004 — 5:03 am

    I think Democrats will be back in 4 years. Bush was an incumbent and I think that worked in his favor in a lot of ways no one is really talking about. I don’t really buy the moral majority thing. It just doesn’t hold water; as we’ve discussed, there is nothing more or less inherently moral about Democrats and Republicans. Those are just two BS parties designed so that politicians can receive bribes more efficiently. The Democrats will regroup and hopefully come out with a real message that will draw people back in. It’s gonna be the Democratic Contract for America and hopefully it will be about real, far-reaching reform. In my fantasy land, Democrat has nothing to do with it–getting rid of parties would be part of the reform. But it would take a major political earthquake to break the parties’ grip on our democracy. Final sidenote, there’s a total other Dan that’s going to be “in the family” so I am changing the name I post with. I usually go by Danny anyways.

  56. I think you were trying to finally close this conversation, Kris, so sorry, but I’ve had a new theory about this whole “moral values” bit.

    This morning I was listening to a story on NPR about the rural vote and how that was what swung the election. As soon as I heard that I felt a little betrayed. Last week they told me it was the moral vote; this week it’s the rural vote! The story then went on about this political scism between the liberal “city folk” and the rural people who care about family and moral values (okay, we haven’t completely tossed the moral issue) and how democrats and liberals need to stop thinking of country folks as rubes.

    This is news? Didn’t anyone hear of the country mouse and the city mouse? American history? European history? There’s always been antagonism between city and country, liberal and conservative, etc.

    I think that a lot of this “divided nation” is a story the media is telling us to make this election more interesting. Yes, we have strong feelings, but the media is only exacerbating the issue by trying to simplify things. I don’t know that we’re really as divided and different as the story that’s being told.

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